Jeans: $18,000

Vanity. No limit to the insanity.

I have been pondering this topic for quite a while, so when I read about a pair of $18,000 blue jeans in 944 Magazine, I blew a gasket.


“The diamonds set in white 14K gold on the back pockets depict snow on 7th Avenue, as it would be during the holidays,” according to Chasi Prasad, Wynn’s Bishop of Seventh co-founder. (What is ole’ Chasi smokin? And can I have some? I wanna see the winter wonderland.)

Bottomline: We just have too damn much money on our hands.

I am in Sin City, Las Vegas, at the Hard Rock of all places. Sex, beauty, money, and glamour rules here. Yeah, it’s fun to watch, but at the end of the day, it makes me very sad because I don’t get it.

Ladies, do we really need a $20, 000  designer handbag?


Martha strutting into court with her now famous Hermes bag. (Rent here)

Is it crucial to have a diamond encrusted ass?

Do we need to have liposuction on our feet to fit into Jimmy Choos? 


Jimmy Choo addicts can’t live without several pairs of these babies.

Are we really this pathetic? I use the word pathetic, in a nice way, if that’s possible. Pathetic because this screams “I HAVE NO SELF ESTEEM.”

Why? Because its just so totally over the top, and selfish, I can’t take it.

How in the hell do you march up and down the street in such silly clothing and accessories without noticing the homeless guy sleeping against his shopping cart?

Sure, we all deserve nice things. We work hard for our money, it’s ok to spend it, but what happened to spending wisely?

This is way the hell out of hand.


This entry was posted in Body Image, Life Perspective, Self Esteem and tagged , , , , , , , , , , , , . Bookmark the permalink.

96 Responses to Jeans: $18,000

  1. Limafan says:

    Yepp, it’s sick. Handbags can sell for more than that too! Millions of children are starving and living without basic needs but who cares about them when there are $50,000 handbags and jeans with real gold to be had!

    Very sad…the world is pretty much going to hell!

  2. Jamie says:

    I totally agree with you on this mamav! There’s no way I would spend that kind of money on something like that when I can get a nice pair of jeans at american eagle or wherever I can find them to fit my long legs. I think some americans have focused so much on the materialistic things in life they are forgetting what life is all about. I would rather take the extra money that I save from not buying the 18,000 dollar jeans and put it towards saving animals, our environment, and other humans.

  3. Karrie says:

    I can’t imagine WHY people want to pay for so much. Shoes get worn, such bags go out of fashion, people aren’t gonna know if the jewels on wear ass are real or fake. I’m happy with a good pair of jeans that fit and flatter me, and I prefer shoes that don’t threaten to snap my ankles into pieces.

    I find all this ridiculous. I can think of much better uses for all that money: Paying for college education, building hospitals in Vietnam and Africa (and paying for vaccinations, doctor’s fees, transportation as well as feeding famine-stricken villages), funding breast cancer research, building more wildlife reserves.

  4. Vanessa says:

    “we” don’t have too much money on our hands. a very small group of people are getting richer and richer, while most of us are losing jobs and having our houses foreclosed on. there is a rising level of inequality in america that has gone from disgraceful (the 90s) to horrifying (now).

    maybe YOU have too much money, mamaV, but as someone who has actually been homeless i can say that for the rest of us? nope, not among our top 10 problems.

  5. Mrs. B says:

    As one with “too much money” on my hands, I kind of resent the inference of people who think that what the country needs is a big government wealth redistribution process.

    What we need is this:

    College education available to everyone who has earned it through effort and performance.

    A fair tax process that doesn’t penalize people who HAVE put forth the effort. My husband grew up with nothing and put himself (with loans) through med school. The fact that he has worked his ass off and works hard every day does not give anyone the right to half of his income, which is what is happening right now, and what liberals intend to expand upon. I have a Master’s degree and worked my ass off for it. It was not handed to me. I do well. People with years of experience and a Master’s degree do better than those who don’t. We literally pay 1/2 of our income in taxes. Do you?

    We also need to encourage service and giving.

    Mama V is exactly right. The problem is cultural. The hollywood and “reality” types have built such a shallow culture that a large percentage of our young people want to make more and more money to buy more and more crap. Crap that doesn’t make you happy. Crap that does nothing for the world around you. Watch MTV for a week and tell me our culture is not crap. It is. It’s a sewer.

    Although Americans are among the most generous people on earth, they are also quickly becoming the most shallow. The whole “fashion” culture is unnecessary and unhealthy, in my opinion.

    I happen to believe that faith is a big piece of a healthy lifestyle. For other people, secular service meets their need for connection with people on a more meaningful level. People who serve realize from their service that need is great and they need to try to do their part to fulfill it.

    Some people DO have way too much money. And they use it to buy $20,000 handbags. Others make a ton and use it in ways that benefit others. The government should not be in the business of deciding to take it away from everyone under the assumption that they will use it more wisely. They won’t.

    My rant for the day. Somewhat off the topic of ED, for sure, but I think that the same shallow culture is the culture that is teaching our girls that the only important thing is to wear a size “0” in their designer jeans.

  6. kelsey m says:

    I agree that people don’t need all this crap. It’s just “stuff” and at the end of your life, you can’t take it with you. Yeah, it’s nice to have nice things. A new computer, a nice MP3 player, a nice house, but yeah jewels on your a$$ is wastless.

  7. Vanessa says:

    mrs b- i never said anything about big government or redistribution. how about decently paying jobs? for instance, i worked for a program that helped troubled teen girls when i first got out of college. i worked about 50 hours a week, made slightly more than minimum wage, and couldn’t afford to move out from my parents house. i loved the job, was very good at it, and would have happily made it my career if i’d been paid a wage that allowed me to be independant.

    and no, i actually am on disability for my ed and other mental illness. so yes, i’m whats wrong with america, i’m taking all your tax money. ooooooh, eeeevil me for barely scraping by while you (or actually, your husband) “works hard”.

    but why, when i “worked hard” didn’t i get a reasonable compensation?

  8. Mrs. B says:

    Hardly anybody makes good money coming right out of college. It takes years of hard work. My husband didn’t even “come out of college” until he was 32. That’s how many years it took him to even get employable as a physician. My first job paid $14,000/yr. I lived at home.

    And no, if someone is on disability, I genuinely think that the govt. needs to do a better job. Disability pays squat….unless you were fortunate enough to have a job that provided private disability. And disability is getting harder and harder to prove.

    Just don’t think that the government has ANY role in determining how much people should make for any given job. The market should determine that. Unfortunately, lots of people CHOOSE jobs that don’t pay well. Service work generally doesn’t pay well. Mostly because we have put it in the hands of the government. If it were private, if someone was exceptional in a job, the employer might be willing to pay more for good quality work.

  9. Vanessa says:

    mrs b- i just went back and read your comment over, and i missed the part about your masters degree (sorry, i was fired up, lol). so, i tried to get a masters too. i left a job i was good at and loved to get a masters in social work. that was the time when the stress got too much and i had to leave school because of my ed. if i’d been able to support myself in my old job maybe i’d still be a productive member of society! everyone isn’t cut out for college, or for grad school. intellectually i can cut it, but for various reasons i would have been much happier if i could have supported myself in a job that required less education.

    so, we both went to grad school, we both “worked hard”. but now you begrudge me my small disability payments, subsidized housing and medical care? even though if it werent for those things i’d be on the streets. sorry but i just don’t see it. especially since if your so-called working hard philosophy actually held true people who work in the service industry ought to be paid enough to support themselves. it doesnt even have to be as much as your rich doctor husband, but enough to get by, raise their kids, put a roof over their heads.

    if you think that is currently the case you are sadly mistaken.

  10. Vanessa says:

    if free markets ruled then we’d still have sweatshops as the rule, we’d never have had the middle class we had for a brief time. if you get your way we’ll be back there again. but at least you and your husband will be fine, yeah?

    ok, this is way off topic. i’m going to stop arguing it but if you think people of intelligence can’t disagree with you you’re very wrong. i understand the free market crap as well as anyone, i happen to disagree with it.

  11. Mrs. B says:

    Sweatshops ended in the US because of free markets. Free individuals got together and asserted their power on their employers. Unions are part of the free market. If the jobs are worth enough to an employer, they will ante up the money that the employees in unison demand. If not, they won’t. That’s free market.

    What you ought to be complaining about is the amount of money our government is spending on illegals for education, health care, etc.

    Did I EVER say that I begrudge a disabled person their health care and disability payments? What I said was that because the government is doing so much crap that ought to be in the free market, they can’t afford to do what they SHOULD be doing – like taking care of disabled Americans.

  12. Xan says:

    Every day I see things that renew my disgust for our culture of excess. This is just over the top. I could get that same look with a $25 pair of Old Navy jeans and a Bedazzler.

  13. Mrs. B says:


    So true!

  14. Mrs. B says:

    Vanessa. I definitely want to help Americans who are disabled. I am sick to death of THIS, however….

    WASHINGTON – Someone has finally fixed an approximate taxpayer cost of between 12 million and 15 million illegal aliens residing in the U.S.

    A new study by the Heritage Foundation’s Robert Rector found a household headed by an individual without a high school education, including about two-thirds of illegal aliens, costs U.S. taxpayers more than $32,000 in federal, state and local benefits. That same family contributes an average of $9,000 a year in taxes, resulting in a net tax burden of $22,449 each year.

  15. Rachel says:

    MamaV: It’s disgusting. It really is. I’ve noticed this sorry phenomenon for a long time. It’s just rude. It is a bloody slap in the face to the less fortunate.

    Mrs B: Disability is a joke. I jumped through many, many hoops to get the funding I needed for my medication and my doctor visits. Even now, I’ve got to sign paperwork every six months to verify what is and what isn’t. In one more day, I will have been sans meds for three. That’s not good. Meh. My dad spent two years trying to get on Disability AND Social Security. He finally succeeded. After two bloody years.

    You lived at home on $14,000 a year? I would pee my pants if I made that much in a year. (Well, maybe not, I’ve got excellent bladder control. At any rate, I’d be very excited.)

    And Excuse Me? Most people CHOOSE jobs that don’t pay squat? Most people where I come from get the jobs that they can because the damn city is saturated with college-educated individuals who have not found long-term employment yet. They saturate the market, making the few good-paying jobs very scarce. I am one of those trying to CHOOSE a better-paying job, but it’s not coming because A.) the market is saturated with similiarly educated individuals, and B.) as a result, the market is pretty damn cutthroat and employers can cherry pick as they see fit.

    The government isn’t even paying squat for “illegals” to be educated, etc. And what the hell do you mean by that, Mrs. B? Most “illegals” that I know scrape by on their two or three jobs that they are paid squat for and don’t have health care. They may get the K-12 Education, but that’s pissing in the ocean. What our dear government is paying for through our tax dollars, is the war in Iraq, a bunch of pork-barrel spending for special interest groups, and not a whole lot else. I have a hard time swallowing these “magic tax cuts” that only sent us spiraling into debt and deficit, that cut health care, education, etc. It’s a fucking joke, really. A lame and sad one at that.

    On Unions: What if you are blacklisted permanently from a job and all other potential employers that would contact that job for trying to start a union? Unions are a GREAT thing, I don’t think that we have enough of them. However, the blacklisting issue happens all the time as a method to keep people from rising up against the minimum-wage status quo. Screw that.

    Vanessa: Well said. Very well said. I agree that everybody is not cut out for college. There is some cultural myth that is floating around to put everybody through college. Everybody needs to Get Through College so that they can get on with Their Big Life out there in The World. But they must Go To College, regardless of whether or not they are cut out for it.

    I am right with you dear, I can cut it intellectually, but my friggin’ mental instabilities are a pain in the ass. It took me six and a half years to get my BA. I don’t think that I’ll be able to go to grad school for reasons you already cited. I’m going to just plain buck up and hopefully find a job that is in my career field and pays more than I am making currently. I scrape my paychecks together every two weeks an d hope that I’ve got enough to make the bills. I’ve got a degree. What’s the deal? I won’t be able to afford to move to better housing for a long, long time at this rate. Six months from now, I will have to begin paying back my student loans. Ouch.

    As far as working hard: I’ve worked harder than most in college. I’ve done it through two and three jobs, going to school FULL TIME. There was a period where I worked for 45+ hours a week and still went to school. Granted, that semester obviously did not pan out, but the work ethic has been the same. I have worked my ass off since I was 15. I started getting paid even at 16. Now I work a service sector job (which is awesome, but does not pay what I need), and I run my own business. The business income varies and has not been stable, so I’ve been relying on my service job to get me by. It barely does. I will be able to apply for food stamps soon and that will help.
    My Point: I have worked my ass off. I continue to work my ass off. Am I getting paid for the amount of work and shit that I go through for it? No!!! Absolutely not! There are some days when I couldn’t get paid enough to deal with the service shit.

  16. Monica says:

    Mrs. B.,

    No sweatshops in the USA? I don’t know where you live, but here in NYC try going to Chinatown, where people are holed up in airless rooms making garments and knick knacks. And if it’s happening in this city, it’s happening in others.

    “Freemarket” is often a buzz word for “I got mine, so you (no matter what level of society you were born into), should get yours.” It just doesn’t work that way. Like everyone here, I work hard, and come from a family where people worked .extremely hard to make it. Do I love paying taxes, especially when I can’t control where it goes? No. However, I would much prefer my taxes to go towards social programs, education, and to those with disabilities, so that society would be stronger as a whole. That’s what we should be aiming for.

    As for the jeans and handbag thing–never got it, never will. However, just remember, that a lot of cheap items come from sweatshop labor. What we need is to have a true living wage here in the good ‘ol USA so that quality items can be made here, without people suffering to make them.

    O.K. Rant over.

  17. kjosie says:

    I wonder which is worse – spending loads when we could be using it for something useful, or being like me and buying really cheap stuff (cos i’ve no money) which uses slave labour?

  18. Monica says:


    My rant wasn’t meant to make you feel bad or guilty about buying the cheap stuff. The problem is with the system in general. If there were fair working practices and not so much corporate greed, you would be able to buy affordable clothing of good quality. There seem to be limited options for both workers and many consumers because of that “1%” who seem to have it all and want to keep it that way.

  19. Mrs. B says:

    Again, way off track…sorry Mama V. Your forum really is not the place for this.

    No health care for illegals? Are you KIDDING?! My husband’s hospital is in an area with a very high number of illegals. They come in, give a false address, don’t pay their bill…..Voila! Free health care! Oh, yeah. Not free. If you have health insurance your rates had to go up to PAY for their free health care. Illegals are a HUGE drain on the health system. Over the weekend, my husband did a fertility procedure on an uninsured illegal. He knew it when he did it because he got a heads up from the primary care doc. Come to find out she had already gone to the other hospital in town and they had ALSO done the workup. If you HAVE insurance you can’t get free fertility treatment, but if you are illegal and give phony information, then you can!! If you are currently of low income trying to work the system honestly, maybe you need to try it! It works!

    I would like to take better care in educating and caring for our own folks, thank you. It is nearly impossible to get disability. It is truly shameful. But we throw money at people who have no right to be here.

    Oh, and yes, you do choose a low paying job. You also choose where you live. You don’t have to live in a town saturated with college professionals or in a major city.

    And by the way. The top 1% of wage earners goes from the new grad doc who has a quarter of million to pay back in school loans, but who is making $200,000 per year, all the way up to Bill Gates. There is a HUGE discrepancy within that range. Don’t assume that everyone in the top tax bracket is “loaded”.

    All I’m saying is this. Yes, MamaV. The Hollywood super rich/fashion obsessed segment of America is wasteful and despicable in their consumption. Agreed.

  20. janemarie says:

    Vanessa – I must say that once again you’ve made an unreasonable and unneccessary personal attack at MamaV…. for absolutely no reason. This is what makes me sick, that people like you can sit there criticising and ranting for no valid reason.

    After reading the post, I must say, I might have to go buy a pair of those jeans, it’ll cost me almost two years wages, but hey…. who cares! I’ll look good, and of course, thats all that seems to matter in the world now! Its disgusting.

  21. una says:

    I wanted to react to what Mrs. B said about ” What you ought to be complaining about is the amount of money our government is spending on illegals for education, health care, etc. ” Neither am I American nor do I live there, but having followed a bit of the news over these past years, I don’t think that education for illegals is eating a hole in the american budget. According to Russel Mokhiber, publisher of the Cororate Crime Reporter , in 1994 ( not very up to date, but still interesting) corporate fraud cost the americans nearly 200 billion dollars. I believe that we are profiting more of the illegal workers (in Europe and in Amercia), that they are from us, with no social rights and bad working conditions.

  22. Vanessa says:

    janemarie- in this particular case i actually meant it as a more general comment, not directed at mamaV in particular. i don’t know how much money she makes, but i doubt she could afford those jeans and i don’t think she’s a member of the ruling elite. i actually don’t think mrs b is either. but i do apologize if the comment seemed directed at mamaV (or even mrs b) instead of at inequality and the corporate ruling class.

    mrs b- it’s all the fault of “illegals” are you kidding me??? there’s so much wrong with that i can’t even beging to explain. for instance, these “illegals” work harder than just about anyone! also, in a free market we would allow the free flow of labor and would not have any “illegals” because anyone who wished to enter and work here would be allowed to do so. that’s free markets for ya.

    more on my blog, where i make the analogy between america and a game of musical chairs. go on, you know you want to read it.

  23. Mrs. B says:

    No, Vanessa….since there is neither a free flow of products and services, nor is there a free flow of labor (other than one way into the US) there is no applicability to your reference to a free flow of labor. If it were truly a free flow of labor…both ways…then we’d talk.

    And why is it that just because there is corporate fraud, that illegals are OK? Services for illegals are not estimated in the billions, they are estimated into the TRILLIONS!!!!! The old “two wrongs make a right?”

    I’m not even going to get into the war….way too complicated and I guarantee you that none of us here have any idea what we’re talking about concerning that topic. People who see the intelligence regarding the middle east need to make those decisions. Not me. I suspect if I knew what was going on under the radar, I wouldn’t be able to sleep at night. Defense is expensive and it is truly a function of the federal government, as defined by the constitution.

    Services for illegals, on the other hand, were not.
    And it is causing a crisis both in health care and education funding.

    Oh, and all of you complaining because your incomes are so low. You don’t think that the flood of workers at low incomes affect your income? Wake up! If employers had to pay market wage at the lowest end, wages would go up across the board. So would prices, however. Mr Corporate Fatcat, and Mrs. Hollywood would have to pay a going rate for their lawncare and babysitting. Imagine that. It wouldn’t leave them nearly as much left over for their diamond-studded jeans and Prada purses.

  24. Vanessa says:

    well, finally i somewhat agree with you. we don’t have a free market now, so why go on about how the market decides this or that? i don’t have a strong position on illegal immigrants, except to think that people like you have been fooled into thinking they’re the problem, they’re taking resources away from america, and that’s not the case. they are costing us for services? no, more like, we are exploiting them.

  25. Monica says:

    Mrs. B.,

    You’re missing the point that the problem is not with the “illegals”, but with outsourcing of jobs. And the fact that Americans don’t want to take the shit jobs that the “illegals” do take.

    I fully agree that there has to be some kind of immigration reform that makes sense and is not punitive. People are already here–how about taking things on a case by case basis instead of these vast generalizations.

    And BTW, my father was a M.D. and an immigrant who worked his ass off to become a physician. I am also in the health care profession and have worked in hospitals where I saw “illegals” get healthcare in a very imperfect system. Yes, I was extremely frustrated that my patients who paid for their insurance often had to leave the hospital earlier than they should because the benefits ran out. So what is the problem here? The fact that insurance is in the hands off insurance companies who dictate what doctors and health care professionals can and cannot do to help their patients is the real problem. There needs to be universal health insurance and humane immigration reform that doesn’t punish people. Unfortunately, I don’t think that will happen because priorities are skewed. I believe that many people benefit in keeping it status quo. After all, why rock the boat when you can pay $18,000 for a pair of jeans?

  26. Mrs. B says:

    I think that insurance should not be part of the free market system. Why should an insurance company profit from denying care? Something about that model seems askew.

    But universal health care sucks. Especially when there is already a situation where we don’t have enough health care providers already. You can’t place even greater demand on an overburdened system. We don’t have enough docs. We don’t have enough nurses. We need to send the illegals home and get more people into the pipeline before the floodgates get opened, or we will find us in a position, like England and Canada face, where they are rationing care.

    Can I ask why nobody wants to punish illegals? They’re criminals. We may need to change our immigration policy if we need this flood of labor, but we sure as hell don’t need to sanction law breaking.

    Outsourcing…..not sure what to do about that. People need to remember that these global corporations are not U.S. corporations any more. It stinks, but the horse is out of the gate and I’m not sure how to bring it back in.

    I think that the U.S. govt. could tax imports of goods to force companies to pay to play. If you send the labor out, you’ll have to pay to get back in. Everyone else does it. But prices would go up.

  27. Mrs. B says:

    Exploiting illegals? No, they are illegal. We are exploiting American workers who would be earning more if businesses had a tighter supply of low-skilled labor.

  28. Monica says:

    Mrs. B,

    You paint with a very broad brush. Yes, technically, illegal immigrants are “criminals.” They came into the country illegally. Yet, the majority came here to escape extreme poverty and often repressive regimes. Most did not have the means to enter the country legally–I’m sure that if they had, they would have done so. I am certainly not saying that every illegal immigrant is a saint. Whenever you get a large group (or small one for that matter), you get the good, the bad and the ugly. Throwing everyone out and denying them healthcare and education however, is both stupid and inhuman. It would actually create more problems across the board. I absolutely believe that for those immigrants who are here, reform must be dealt with on a case by case basis. Not all “immigration” cases are equal. It is a complicated situation, with loads of variables. And if you think immigrants are the reason for the health care crisis in America,
    well, shame on you. As a doctor’s wife, you would do better not to base your opinions on prejudice, but on actual research.

  29. a_mother says:

    I am a caucasion white American woman who has one of the shit jobs that nobody wants to do. There are still some of us regular Americans that aren’t afraid of a hard days work. I work with about 80 other Americans and there are many more that are looking for work but their aren’t any jobs for which they are qualified,because the “illegals” have them. I work very hard for the little money I make. I am a single mother of 3 who pays what I consider to be cheap insurance apporoxiamately $300 a month for family coverage..which is double what I use to pay about 5 years ago..I do not put a drain on the system. I recieve no financial help from anyone or government agency. Yet when I go to the grocery store the “illegal aliens” from our home town, making the same amount of wage I do, have the same amount of kids and a spouse at home (that could be working) with no daycare and pay for their food with food stamps. I pay with the money I have worked for all week at the same plant, the same hours, the same pay, and you tell me there is no difference in the way they are treated? Mean while they can go buy more stuff for their kids than I can mine because I had to chose to buy food. Government agencies from Missouri have cut back on the medical for the poor in our area because of the “illegal aliens” making it to where people who would qualify don’t because they have to take care of the people on welfare first. They get the medicaid and food stamps while working under a false name, with false social security numbers, in truth, I am still paying for them. That is ok though because at the end of the day I am the one who is able to hold my head up and say I am supporting my family on my own, and I am proud of that fact. Just because you have a low paying shit job doesn’t mean you are desolate. I work all day and then go to school at night. I own my own home and vehicle. While some worry more about the things they wear I have been working on what I call neccesities like a home and vehicle. I go to the thrift stores and buy what the “people with more money than they know what to do with” throw out. Most are almost brand new and some still have the tags on them. Being frugile with your money and working the shit job doesn’t mean you have to be a slob either. My kids have Nike’s, SouthPole, Old Navy, American Eagle and I pay more than 75% less then the one who bought it new. Shoes I do have to say I buy new. I have to use the wages I get to survive on….so no I couldn’t afford a pair of those jeans nor would I want to wear them…..I would be more worried about one of the stones falling out than how good they looked on me. They wouldn’t be comfortable either sitting on rocks!

    It wasn’t but about 8 years ago when I was just starting out on my own after the divorce that I was making $13,500 a year and had my own home (which I aquired after we parted through a loan, two vehicles and food on my table with the same 3 kids and I didn’t get any assistance from the government….I won’t say it was easy….but my kids have a savings account and usually kept $30 dollars on them at all times. It is how you use your money and what you chose to waste it on that matters. I have taught my kids you pay the bills, then you get what you need, then you get what you want…..they seem to be ok with it. I choose not to blow my money on stuff that cost as much if not more than my car!

  30. Vanessa says:

    i don’t really see the “criminals” argument either, and agree with monica. although we are hilariously off topic, this debate has been really interesting!

    is illegally entering the country a felony? the penalty as i understand it is being sent back to your own country, not prison time, so i don’t think it is. whether or not it’s technically a felony, i see it more on the level of speeding or parking in a spot with a meter and staying over the time you payed for. or jaywalking. you know what i’m saying. something that is illegal, and illegal for a reason, but people who do it aren’t really criminals and i may, alas, have sped or jaywalked myself. although i was born in the country and to the best of my knowledge my italian great grandparents all came over here legally.

    and as for us exploiting them, well, mostly they come from someplace where they would basically be starving and unable to feed their families with no jobs available, to here where they can live in grinding poverty to pick our crops, clean our houses and hotel rooms, and cut our grass. meanwhile we deny them most basic services despite the claims of mrs b to the contrary. they basically get health care if it is a life or death emergency and not otherwise, and substandard education for their children, and nothing else so far as i know.

  31. kjosie says:

    Monica – no problem, i would have written my comment whether yours was there or not. My consumerism has been playing on my conscience a lot lately.

  32. Vanessa says:

    a_mother actually, studies have shown that illegal immegrants almost never use welfare, medicaid, or food stamps. a tiny tiny minority might, but the vast majority are like you.

    what we NEED is decently paying jobs for people who are willing to work hard, even if they haven’t gone to college. and at least a start on how we get that is to stop making “free trade” agreements with places that exploit their own workers even more badly than we do here.

  33. Amber/vanity900/cult66623 says:

    FOOT LIPO?! your kidding me right? please? oh god im not surprised.

    as for the jeans, I’d rather have a $30 badazzler.

  34. Sass1948 says:

    Mrs B put forth good point about america…until she vouched for one of the biggest money-grabbers of all – religion!!!! hahahahahaha oh dear.

  35. mamavision says:

    Well, you guys have had some fun on this one. This is great how debates take on a life of their own!

    Vanessa: I am damn rich. Rich in heart and soul Honey, and that’s all you need. Not sure you are there yet, but I hope you are trying.

    For the record I drive a 97′ Camry with over 100,000 miles on it, because there is no way in hell I would or could justify spending even $10K on a car when we have two children to put through college someday.

    We have a home that is a dream to us, but for others in my age bracket, our house would just be a typical two story in the suburbs. We have our home because we are conservative with funds, we budget ourselves appropriately, and we appreciate everything we have. I have no desire for bigger, better, more.

    More importantly though, we are simple. It doesn’t take much to make us happy. Give my husband a few CD’s once in a while, and me some cash to hit Goodwill or Target for clothes and we are totally content (great shopping at the Goodwill stores here, I get a rush from buying a new Ann Taylor silk blouse with the tags still on it for $3.99!)

    The kids get all the goodies from Grandma, they think mom and dad are tight wads sometimes, but overall they are simple too.

    We have no cable. This has become a big joke because everyone has cable for goodness sake, but to us $30 bucks a month is a lot of money, and we would rather spend it elsewhere.

    Ahhhh, ok. So, I am headed out of Plastic Land, I didn’t gamble penny just because I am not into it, and I will be headed back to blessed farm country…where the public schools are stellar, the roads are well maintained, the library’s are stocked with unbelieveable books, movies, and CD’s, and the people are halfway grounded.

    The good news is, I think we will see a shift, and people will start coming back down to earth…at least that is my hope.


  36. anon says:

    vanessa and mrsB. you want “illegals” come right on over to good ole england. illegals in america from what i can twell and have seen, are yes illegal but they work to pay for food on the table.

    over here in good ole england they can be *bleep* illegal and the government sucks their *bleep* arse giving them everything and they dint even have to bother to learn the english language or get a job. nnnnnoooooo instead people like me have to work 40 hours a week and pay taxe so the nhs can give them a translator and skip the queues at A and E (ER for you americans lol) and they get free housing in which they then bring over all their family illegally to live in one house. they get state benefits, child benefits and they do nothing to help themselves or give ack to the country that has so readily wiped their arses.

    (noone bother atackin me on this. i work in an area wher i see this everyday and no i dont feel sorry for them. i to sit in on something where this woman refuses point blank to learn english, therefore cant get a job, has arthrtus in her knee, which proof has shown shouldnt be affecting her the way she says it, and she depressed cos her benefits have been lowered. her benefits..are you kidding me?! my whole family works to keep this woman who wont even leanr the language?! my nan is 80 on sunday her body is riddled with arthritus to the pojnt where she had to have both hips replaced and now need both knees…and she still works. she is a private beautician. and my nan, is working to keep this pathetic woman here are you serious?! she had to go private for her hips cos the nhs and government are so corrupt here. they have forgotten their own people. No if someone comes in, whether or not illegal, but works, learns th langauage, and pays taxes so is giving back, the both thumbs up and good luck to them! rant over lol not sure i see your point to this post. Not everyone shops and spens laods cos of low self esteem. i do agree that the price for thos jeans are a joke!!! seriosuly lol its a well known fact that the cheaper the jean the bettter quality its actually is. but i hardly doubt that its the top of everybodies worry list!

  37. Vanessa says:

    mamaV- i just had to respond. because you’re so down to earth, and so completely in line with my own parents and the way they brought me up to be, and for once i actually loved everything you said, although you didn’t weigh in on the more political areas of our discussion. my parents brought me up to have the same values, we had a decent home in the suburbs but no cable while i was growing up. my wonderful loving parents who did their best for me, and who i don’t blame for my mental illness or my eating disorder, btw, although genetically they contributed to it, certainly, and my dad didn’t do me any favors with his attitudes about overweight people, myself included.

    my parents worked hard, both of them were highly educated, and they raised me to be tolerant of others and liberal in my politics. i think mamaV is probably a great mom to her own children, and although i’ve said it before it bears repeating- i make fun of her, i give her hell, but i think she’s a decent person and agree with her on most of the substance of her opinions, although i dislike a lot about the way she goes about things.

  38. Mrs. B says:

    Don’t worry. The USA is working very hard to be just like England. We’re not requiring immigrants to learn the language. And we are absolutely doing everything that we can to destroy the American health system with people who do not contribute to it. I have to laugh at you Monica.

    I am an HR administrator who has worked in the hospital environment for years. My husband has practiced medicine for decades. I manage benefits for a large company. You don’t think I know where the drains are on the resources of hospitals? You think I have an “ignorant” opinion?

    How’s this? Seriously. You need to read more.

    “In fact, the increasing number of illegal aliens coming into the United States is forcing the closure of hospitals, spreading previously vanquished diseases and threatening to destroy America’s prized health-care system, says a report in the spring issue of the Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons.

    “The influx of illegal aliens has serious hidden medical consequences,” writes Madeleine Pelner Cosman, author of the report. “We judge reality primarily by what we see. But what we do not see can be more dangerous, more expensive, and more deadly than what is seen.”

    According to her study, 84 California hospitals are closing their doors as a direct result of the rising number of illegal aliens and their non-reimbursed tax on the system.

    “Anchor babies,” the author writes, “born to illegal aliens instantly qualify as citizens for welfare benefits and have caused enormous rises in Medicaid costs and stipends under Supplemental Security Income and Disability Income.”

    I guess you will figure it out when it impacts you directly. Otherwise you’ll see no evil, hear no evil…

  39. Mrs. B says:

    Oh, for heavens sake, Monica. You are the uninformed one. I have managed benefits for a major corporation for years, and worked many years in a public hospital. My husband has practiced medicine for decades.

    Do you read?

    How’s this:

    In fact, the increasing number of illegal aliens coming into the United States is forcing the closure of hospitals, spreading previously vanquished diseases and threatening to destroy America’s prized health-care system, says a report in the spring issue of the Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons.

    “The influx of illegal aliens has serious hidden medical consequences,” writes Madeleine Pelner Cosman, author of the report. “We judge reality primarily by what we see. But what we do not see can be more dangerous, more expensive, and more deadly than what is seen.”

    According to her study, 84 California hospitals are closing their doors as a direct result of the rising number of illegal aliens and their non-reimbursed tax on the system.

    “Anchor babies,” the author writes, “born to illegal aliens instantly qualify as citizens for welfare benefits and have caused enormous rises in Medicaid costs and stipends under Supplemental Security Income and Disability Income.”

    Just because you don’t know anything about what I am telling you, doesn’t mean it isn’t so. Illegals are shutting down hospitals all over the country.
    But at least you are getting cheap service in your fast food restaurants.

  40. Vanessa says:

    don’t thank me anyone, but mrs b if you go to a CONSERVATIVELY BIASED medical journal you will not get accurate scientific data.

  41. I wish I was in Vegas!

    Funny, I always find the really expensive things to be kind of ugly.

  42. Pineo says:


    You make some great points. And some that I’d like to dispute.

    1. Illegal immigration is being handled completely incorrectly. The best way to solve the problem (in my eyes) would be to allow anyone who does NOT have a criminal record to obtain a visa. No limits on the number of law-abiding immigrants that can be in this country. If you commit a crime, you’re out for good. Immigrants would pay taxes and not be in this country illegally. End of story. That way, the tax burden will be reduced/eliminated.

    2. Fair tax, however, would hurt those who make less. Taking X percentage from someone making just above the poverty line will affect them a LOT more than it will affect someone making $200,000 a year. It’s not punishing people who make more, because if you make more, you still get to keep a higher AMOUNT of your money, although its a lower PERCENT.

    3. I agree with college education for all to an extent. It should be affordable, and MUCH MORE aid needs to be expended at the federal level for those making below X amount per year.However, the more people who are obtaining college educations, the less value the college degree will have in the market.

    4. Disability is a joke. Definitely need more payments towards the disabled.

    As for the jeans, they are effing ridiculous.

  43. Mrs. B says:

    84 hospitals close in one state and I’m just too conservative. Glad you didn’t have a job in one of those hospitals.

  44. Vanessa says:

    look, if i have time i’ll try and look up the actual facts about those hospitals, etc. the “one” state is california which has unique problems, including some with illegal immigrants involved in criminal gangs, so no matter what it is not representitive of the situation throughout the country. what i will NOT do is accept some biased conservative mouthpiece’s word for it that “OMG ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS WILL RAPE YOUR DAUGHTER!!!!” or give you leprosy or whatever claptrap they’re putting out. you want to give me evidence, give me a reputable source, or several sources, but don’t give me the conservative journal of medicine!

  45. Mrs. B says:

    How many times do I have to say that I agree that we treat our disabled in this country miserably? The process by which you become disabled under SS Disability is nearly impossible and the benefits are terrible.

    If you have studied most of the fair tax proposals, most of them exclude the first 30,000 in income.

    I have no idea how to handle the immigration problem. But I’m not so foolish as to think it is not a problem. It is killing the American taxpayer and it is killing the incomes of low-wage earners in the US. It is stressing the educational system and KILLING the healthcare system.

  46. Mrs. B says:

    Vanessa, It is the freakin Journal of Physicians and Surgeons. It isn’t a “conservative” publication. It is a MEDICAL publication.

    California is the freakin biggest state in the nation with the largest economy of any state in the union.

    Texas, Colorado, New York, Pennsylvania, Florida, and every state with a major city faces the same problem.

    Have you always been so unable face truth? Do you walk into walls much with your eyes closed?

  47. Vanessa says:

    mrs b, no, it is the journal of a conservative organization. follow my wikipedia link. or google it, if you don’t trust wikipedia. either way they are a conservative organization dedicated to conservative causes which makes them not acceptable as a sole source as far as i’m concerned. you don’t see me giving you evidence from ACORN or Mother Jones, do you? i am willing to accept evidence that my opinions are wrong, but not if that evidence is coming from biased sources. like yours did.

  48. Vanessa says:

    and lay off the personal attacks. i respect your right to hold opinions different from mine, and i’ve tried not to imply that you are stupid just because your views differ. so why are you doing that to us on the left? enough! we are just as intelligent and informed as you, we just disagree with you.

  49. Mrs. B says:

    This is professional journal. Recognized and reputable.

    Liberal is fine. I am liberal on many issues. Ignorant is another. You can’t even recruit a doctor to texas or arizona or colorado anymore.
    Would you like me to sent you the ads my husband gets begging him to come to a border state? You are just wrong. Some things are not shades of gray. This is truly black and white. We are not disagreeing. You are just wrong on this topic, Vanessa. Misinformed, perhaps. But I live in this industry and you do not.

  50. Vanessa says:

    no, they are NOT reputable.

    i’m just picking random google hits for their organization. they are a conservative group. they aren’t a medical journal in the sense of a scientific unbiased peer reviewed reputable source. ok?

  51. Mrs. B says:

    Here’s the good news for you, Vanessa…You, Karl Rove, George Bush, LaRaza and Big Business are all right on the same page with this one.

    Follow the money, Vanessa. Always follow the money. While your hospital suffers, big business gets bigger and richer. Nice work.

  52. a_mother says:

    Well as for the facts about how the “illegals” have taken over or not…..what state are you from Vanessa because I would love to go online and check the statistics out. In our state we are big producers of turkeys and chickens (Tyson and Cargill…aka….Honeysuckle white Turkeys) and they actually fired people that had been there for years to bring in “illegals” so they didn’t have to pay them as much and now they have pretty much taken over the town… is now required in the school for our children to learn spanish in Kindergarden not the other way around. This may not be in any statistic but we are living it everyday. As far as very few use welfare….as I said what state are you from? Here that is about the only form of income they know. When they got tired of working at Cargill they would stay home, get drunk and brought gangs into our town. They actually made a few businesses shut down because the gangs would go to the drive through and get the food and scared the girls so much they were afraid to report them for not paying. Would you want to work there or have your children work there if you had some? Crime has increase along with the “illegals”. Don’t get me wrong some of them are decent people….but for the majority I would rather if they wanted to become citizens they could apply the right way. There are others that do. I work with a woman who was not a citizen for 25 years though she lived here and got our rights and freedoms, she complained when they took taxes out of her check. I had asked to see the HR (Human Resource) lady at work over an insurance issue one day and while I was walking up to the office so was this lady. I went in the main office and she took the short cut. I started walking to the HR office and she walked right in even though she hadn’t been called and shut the door right in my face. I just turned around and looked at the secretary. She said I don’t know what is going on but wait, it shouldn’t take long…..well after alot of yelling and 45 minutes later I was still waiting for my turn. The lady who went in the office came out and took two swings at me for no reason. Everyone seen it, the door was shut to the HR office, I opened the door and said I don’t think so. She just swung at me and I didn’t even do anything. I was just standing there waiting because you called me up here. They said I guess this isn’t over. She is still there today and gets to do anything she wants because our company gets government funding to keep her. If I were to be stupid enough to do the same thing I would be out the door within minutes and charges brought on me. If they come here they should be treated just the same as me….they aren’t any better. So until you can show me the statistics … living proof will suffice. As for “illegals” raping I am sure the statistics are the same as if they were legal people in the state. One thing though you have to remember….if my brother or son were to rape your daughter (not saying they would am using as an example only) the police would know their name and where they could find them. If an “illegal alien” rapes your daughter you aren’t even sure if the name you know them by is the right one to tell the police to look for….most have fake names and ss# so which would you rather deal with? Our state has had enough of the crime and financial strain it has had on our state so they are tracking down the “illegal aliens” and deporting them. Other states have started this also. One state I believe is Iowa, when they pull anyone over anymore they check to see it they are here legally or not and if not they are deported. I say it is about time! I am all about fairness…but when will it be the tax payers turn for the fairness. I love research so if you tell me which state it is you are from I will look it up no problem. I am not being hateful while giving the truth and just trying to show different examples that probably aren’t getting put in the statistical review….how many are going to tell on themselves really.

  53. a_mother says:

    If you want to know the reason why the low paying jobs are around it is because of the people who are here illegally. They have 5-7 families living in one house, and can take those lower end jobs because they don’t have as many expenses. They are split 5-7 ways. To start getting more competitive wages they should work on the “illegal alien” problem and it will get better for you and finding a better paying job. Our town started making contracts where only one family came live in the house or the rent will go up accordingly with each family that moves in. Each family would have to pay $300 per month. They are only trying to make it more real for everyone and look out for their property. With that many people they were trashing the houses and leaving the owner to pay for it. It would be better if they would do the right thing and become citizens…it is not that hard.

  54. Vanessa says:

    both of you, enough! first off, the association of american physicians and surgeons is definitely a conservative organization. i googled it, tons of links identified it as such, and i posted a link to the wikipedia article. if you don’t want to check it out for yourself don’t just go back and claim its a non-partisan medical journal and say i’m wrong with no support for that position.

    and as for illgal immigrants, look, my position is not that they aren’t a problem, although you WILL find that the evidence says they barely use services like welfare. thats across the country, not in my state. but my point is, they are a smokescreen. government and corporations get you hating the “illegals” who are just hard working people trying to feed their families. instead the real culprits are the corporations who exploit both these workers and the american worker. i agree completely that they pay them dirt and then say “oh americans won’t take those jobs” americans don’t want to be paid dirt! and the only reason that immigrants accept these substandard wages is because they’re desperate to care for their families. like we all are.

    but instead of getting mad at the corporations and demanding they pay wages americans can take and use to support their families, they get you all upset about the so-called criminals who are supposedly taking your job. the corporations are taking your job, not the immigrants. period! regulate the corporations. shut them down if they use undocumented labor. make them pay a decent wage. but don’t blame people who are basically victims as well.

  55. whitenoisemachine says:

    I’m going to make canvas bags that say “I have no self esteem”. They’re only $5 instead of $20,000. Who’s in?

  56. Mrs. B says:

    whitenoise….that is a great idea. I’d like a dozen of those.

    Vanessa….we agree that it is international corporations who have no loyalty to American workers who are feeding the hiring of cheap labor. But we need to attack this problem from all angles, because the international corporations have no soul.

    When ever possible….support small business.

  57. Vanessa says:

    mrs b- well, there we do agree. but here’s a source disputing your claims, btw. although i don’t claim this group is non biased, they cite studies from nonbiased researchers.

  58. Mrs. B says:

    Here is the fallacy in your logic. I did not say that undocumented workers place a drain on the UNITED STATES. They place a drain on private hospitals and private physicians. They do. And your statistics do not represent that in any way. The U.S. Government does not step in and reimburse private doctors and private hospitals who are every day providing health care services to people who are using false documents and false addresses to obtain care. Not just EMERGENCY care, but whatever care they want to obtain….in the case of my husband, full fertility workups. This stuff isn’t even tracked. It is just written off as uncollectible and they move on. 84 hospitals have closed in california.

    It doesn’t matter in the slightest if undocumented workers “use health care at a statistically lower percentage than legal workers”. It doesn’t help the physician who is working in an area with a high population of illegals (as we do) who is writing off half of their daily work as uncollectible. It doesn’t help the hospital in California, Texas, Colorado or Florida that has to close its doors. Vanessa, whether you understand it or not, and clearly you don’t, illegals are causing a huge crisis that can’t even begin to be tallied. I live it. You just cite reports. Basically, my husband and his hospital are expected to provide a massive personal subsidy to big corporations who hire these people under the radar, but do not provide them insurance. I do not think that it is a private hospital’s job, or a private physician’s job to support the cheap labor of an international corporation.

    So unless you personally want to ante up additional tax revenue to pay these bills, you need to learn something about the issue and help find real solutions. The hospitals and health care workers on the front line are tired of paying the freight for your generosity.

  59. Mrs. B says:

    For Gosh Sake, Vanessa….
    That “organization” you cited…..they have about 30 physicians NATIONALLY who belong.

    They even list DEAD members on their roster.

    Pretty representative group there.

    Nice try.

  60. Jaime says:

    Someone please say something about the billboards for Gastric Bypass I see everywhere.


    people DIE from malnutrition becasue their body stops absorbing! This is after 5 years!

    Check out the Junk Food Science article!

    I was in the line of fire.
    I had to lose about 40 pounds (in 3 months) it was a life or death situation and I did what I had to do. in order for any doctor to STOP harassing me about my weight, and get down to why I was suffering so badly with I.B.S -A, acid reflux, and could not breathe well,…and had muscle cramps all over

    Not even my Gastro Doctor would help me!
    She had removed a huge Pylop durring a colonosopy, and I have yet to see the biopsy reports.

    We are about to be persuaded to pursue legal actions to get that document.

    She said I needed a lung doctor and a G bypass!
    No, she actually DEMANDED and ORDERED ME.
    I said NO,…I am already losing weight,..I can’t breathe! and my throat was so sore I could barely talk!
    I was eating pureed food!

    I had to go to my GP to get acid reducing meds.
    the acid was so bad you could smell it across the room


    Now I am losing weight becasue I can exersize
    I can breathe!,
    I am on a I.B.S and diet,
    medications->steroid inhaler, have acid reducers Zegirid and Zantac, and vitamin D supplements.

    when you are overweight.
    WATCH OUT!!!!
    THEY WANT YOUR $$$$$

  61. Mrs. B says:

    SOME doctors are biased. I have also seen lots of doctors do everything they can to try to help a patient lose weight for health reasons by non-invasive means. Lots of health insurance plans still won’t even pay for GBP, so don’t always assume that it’s a money thing. If they recommend an uninsured procedure, they will likely not get paid. My husband never even sees the insurance side of things. He makes his recommendations based on what he thinks is the best medical advice for that patient. Then he either gets paid or he doesn’t.

  62. kjosie says:

    Lol – for the first time EVER there’s a debate going on that i’m not implicated in!!

    However i am going to disagree with anon. Here in England illegals (not migrants, i mean those who are here illegally) don’t get anything from the government, because the government rounds them up, locks them up in inhumane prisons, and sends them back to where they came from. And if they’re not caught, they’re exploited by British exployers who make them work ridiculus hours for little pay, in dangerous conditions.
    Migrants (aka, foreigners who are here legally) – that’s a different issue altogether. I don’t think those who aren’t prepared to work or learn the language should be here.

  63. Vanessa says:

    josie you’re so lucky you’re english.

    i’m done debating this issue, especially since it’s not even one i feel all that strongly about- why should i defend undocumented workers when what i really care about is what’s happening to people who were born in this country and can’t get decently paying jobs. if mrs b and a_mother want to believe all problems in this country are the fault of undocumented workers that’s their deal. i’ll just refer them to the simpsons episode on this topic. an oldy but a goody.

    but dude, anyone who thinks i’m harsh- get a load of mrs b and her personal attacks on anyone who happens to disagree with her virulent anti-undocumented worker views! damn!

  64. una says:

    I totally agree with you Vanessa. Corporations have got far too much power.
    Did any of you see the film “Sicko” by Michael Moore. This film shows how the american Healthcare sytem goes down the drains (and there are no illegals metioned).
    And I really can’t connect to the idea that 4 families of illegals squash themselvs happily in a two room appartment. Talking about my experience as a foreigner : finding an appartment in Paris, being Swiss was next to impossible. The owners wanted burdens living in France. I don’t even want to know how difficult it is for somebody without the papers. The majority of illegal imigrants live in the worst possible flats, which aren’t legally possible to rent out. Some of the owners even put the inhabitants under pressure, saying that if they don’t pay, the will denounce them.

  65. anon says:

    kjosie. yes not all illegals get the same treatment, but i can promise you enough do. I work with them. i see them on a daily bases. i got yelled at today by some woman…in turkish (so i didnt actually understand it, but our translator told me what she said) because i couldnt understand her!!! are you effing kidding me?!!!! shes over here and shes yelling at me cos i dont speak turkish!

    i was attacked by a drunk guy wh was registered with us, and guess what. he was an illegal. he had a flat and he lived of beenfits. al under a false name. he had been arressted many times, and turns out the courts had him under his flase thought he was from italy when he was from poland and the amount of thigs he got on the nhs they failed to recognise that he psychiatric problems, resulting in me me being attacked, and then a week later someone being stabbed by him, as he rode of on his bike in the nude in the middle of the day. and yet he got everything from the government. and i got jack shit.

    do you remember last year on the news about those illegal criminals who hadnt been deported has escaped prison, and then the government found out that a ton of people atually working for the government were illegals!!!!!

    im all for migrants dont get me wrong. i hope to become one when i move to america. but i plan on giving back to america when i do move there. If you want to live in another country work your way, and learn the lingo. If we were to go to turkey and had to go hosp, or even spain and we couldnt speak the lingo tough shit. you have to suffer cos they wont see you. now over here they have interpretors given to them. a turkish person will go ahead of someone in A and E if the interpreto is already down there. (i have no issues with turkish people in general..just wanna state that, its the nhs i have an issue with). why cant it be the same here as it is in other places?!

  66. Hillary says:

    This is the most absurd argument. It’s entirely pointless. Because you come different lives and different lifestyles, you have different views. All you are doing is completely taking away from the point of MamaV’s post. Life isn’t fair. There will never be equality. Ever. Evereverever. Just like there will never be world peace evereverever. People will have to pay for other people, people will have to work their asses off for nothing, people will be able to live in splendor without a care. And yeah it sucks. But is arguing about illegals and healthcare and the rich and the homeless really going to accomplish anything? If you have such a problem with the way things are done, then try and do something about it. Even if it doesn’t work, it sure as hell beats sitting on your asses complaining about how tough life is. Make the best you can of it.

  67. Mrs. B says:


    Good post.

    So true.

  68. Mrs. B says:

    I am not making personal attacks. I’m just pointing out the fact that you know not of what you speak. Even if you are incredibly well informed by The Simpsons.

  69. a_mother says:

    I am not ingorant enough to believe that all the problems are because of the undocumented workers. It is the government for doing nothing to keep our jobs from going over seas and shutting down what jobs the regular person can get. They do nothing to support our American people. I know this but you are wrong to speak out of turn and say that I only believe one thing. I don’t, but what was brought to the table was what we were discussing. I guess it is true can’t stand the heat get out of the kitchen. I am not interested in discussing this further because it is the same thing over and over. You can just reread if you want it doesn’t change. So have a good day!

  70. withlovebyli says:

    I haven’t read any of the previous comments. A brief glances indicates we’ve gone off-topic. So I’m going to ignore all of them and just address the content of the actual post.

    Getting liposuction on your feet definitely screams “I have no self-esteem”. Women who can afford 20 grand handbags and 18 grand jeans, on the other hand, don’t *necessarily* have low self-esteem. They’re self-involved just like many other non-super-rich women. Only they can afford to be so on a way bigger scale.

    I think extremely expensive clothing/accessories is wasteful. How many people could the super-rich help if they opted out of the $18,000 jeans and donated to charity? World poverty would end! lol

    But guess what? They don’t CARE. All of this only reinforces my belief that humans are still so primitive. Ugh.

  71. Vanessa says:


    i’m sorry i offended you, i was just frusterated and felt attacked by mrs b. but honestly i think this is a complicated issue and i see different sides although i obviously disagree with you and mrs b to some extent. again, apologies.

  72. Mrs. B says:

    Here is my problem with you on this issue.

    I come to this site, as the mother of a child with an eating disorder to learn from women (and sometimes men) about what they are dealing with….because I do not know what I need to know about eating disorders. I do not claim to have an adequate body of knowledge on that issue. I am here to learn.

    You get involved in a subject where, truthfully, you do not have the information you need to make an informed decision, but you know everything. The fact that the US Govt. is not being overwhelmed through medicaid by illegals misses the point entirely. It is the private healthcare system taking the whole burden of the illegal immigration problem where medicine is concerned. You can’t even begin to quantify that. It amounts to people who come in, lie, receive care and walk away from their bill. The amount of that occuring in my husband’s practice and in his hospital now amounts to over 30% of their patient load. It is threatening their ability to care for patients who are here legally and that is a problem. Universal health care doesn’t fix that because illegals won’t be covered by universal health care, just like medicaid doesn’t cover them.
    My husband is paying for the care of illegals. You are not. In border states, the amount of this uncollectible care is significantly higher and they are in even worse shape.

    So I think it is damn nice of you to think that my husband should do his job, buy equipment, supplies, etc. to deliver care for free 30% of the time…well that’s really nice you you. Whether you choose to put your head in the sand or not, don’t worry. It isn’t YOUR problem.

  73. alien says:

    … is there a “truth” to argue about?

    “Getting liposuction on your feet definitely screams “I have no self-esteem”. Women who can afford 20 grand handbags and 18 grand jeans, on the other hand, don’t *necessarily* have low self-esteem. They’re self-involved just like many other non-super-rich women. Only they can afford to be so on a way bigger scale.”

    well said withlovebyli!

  74. Monica says:

    I pulled out of this entire argument because really, how long can you spin your wheels? The only thing I wanted to add is that even if you took immigration out of the equation, healthcare in this country would still be a colossal mess. Let’s hope, as the candidates keep touting, that change really is possible and that access to affordable healthcare will be a viable option for all. Soon.

  75. Mrs. B says:

    Part of the reason that healthcare is a mess is all of the magnificent interventions from politicians in the past. If only the professionals weren’t so overwhelmed with their caseloads so that they could participate in the solution.
    Unfortunately, they have patients to see. My husband spends no time on the business side of his practice.

  76. Monica says:

    Mrs. B.,
    I wish you the best of luck and hope that all goes well for you and your daughter.

  77. Sass1948 says:

    “I think extremely expensive clothing/accessories is wasteful. How many people could the super-rich help if they opted out of the $18,000 jeans and donated to charity? World poverty would end! lol”

    Hey withlovebyli – don’t know if you’re kidding there – but world poverty is not – unfortunately – as simple as the rich making big donations. I wish it was, but it really isn’t. xx

  78. Mrs. B says:

    Thanks for your well-wishes for my daughter.

  79. Monica says:

    You’re welcome, Mrs. B. We can just agree to disagree. I know that the reason you came here initially was to help your daughter–not to get into a “shouting” match about immigration and healthcare (though it was an interesting diversion!). I have my own history of eating disorders (25 years ago), am healthy now, but still carry that shadow with me. So yes, I do hope for your daughter’s recovery and the recovery for anyone who wants it. It really isn’t an easy road.

  80. withlovebyli says:

    well said withlovebyli!

    Thanks, alien! :)

    world poverty is not – unfortunately – as simple as the rich making big donations.

    I was kidding! haha But it certainly wouldn’t hurt!

  81. Mrs. B says:

    It is always a blessing to here from people who have recovered from this disease. It is a hard battle. There are so many opposing forces – internal and external.

    My daughter is in an amazing program and is working hard – and I know she faces a long road. It is great to hear that people do get better, although as you say, the shadow remains.

    You all need to remember on the immigration front, however, my husband has practiced medicine for 25 years in the same town. When he began, he had about 10% in uncollectible billings. With the demographic change in the town he works, their uncollectibles have increased to nearly 40%. Illegals are a terrible problem for the docs and the hospitals. Between the terrible reimbursement from Medicaid and the “free” (uncollectible) stuff he does resulting from fraud, he is seriously considering taking his practice someplace more affluent. And this is a guy who has been pretty committed to the blue collar rural town he has worked in for so many years. Rural towns all over America are having so much trouble competing for the short supply of docs that they are having to subsidize them. Another form of corporate welfare…when towns have to tax their folks to pay the docs who aren’t getting paid by the illegal aliens who were hired with no benefits by the big corporations. I’d be happy to show you guys the information on physician recruitment in rural America. It’s all there in black and white.

  82. Sass1948 says:

    “I was kidding! haha But it certainly wouldn’t hurt!”

    It would hurt. Leaders of 3rd world countries are corrupt. Donations aren’t used to feed the country’s people…otherwise…it would be simple :-)

  83. Rachel says:

    I’m not going to spin my wheels by taking a side. I will say that I am not informed enough on the issue to pass judgement. I know from my own experience that the people here illegally working in the restaurants as dishwashers/bussers/etc are sending all of their money back to their home country where their families live. There was one guy who hasn’t seen his son in two or three years.

    As far as the medical drain, I pass no judgement because I do not have experience with the issue.

    If we want to solve the problem: Huge tax penalties for ANYONE employing an individual that is not able to legally work here, unless they are in the process of getting their green card or whatever documentation that they need. If found using fake names and SSNs, then they get deported immediately. If they are not in the process of becoming a citizen, they get deported. If they have the documentation showing that they are trying to become citizens, they don’t get deported. Good on paper. Probably not so good in practice.

    $18000 on a fucking pair of jeans? Give me a fucking break.

  84. j says:

    i doubt her birkin bag was $20,000. it looks more in the $10,000-range, judging by the leather. but what’s a ten thousand dollar exaggeration to try to get your point across, right?

  85. Tanya says:

    Lipo on FEET?! Thats only slightly less ridiculous than people getting their little toe amputated so they can fit into mega-narrow shoes. Why don’t they just make slightly wider shoes so people’s whole feet can actually fit in? That kind of thing is just madness.

    I’m absolutely broke right now and even owning a sweater without a hole in it somewhere or a skirt or pair of trousers that hasn’t been taken in or re-seamed is but a distant dream. It scares me a little that people spend thousands of ANYTHING on one pair of jeans.

  86. Rachel says:

    Here here, Tanya. I agree completely.

    On the shoe thing: I’ve got a wide foot. I have always had a wide foot. I like shoes, but I will drop between $20 and $60 on them. I don’t care about Jimmy Choo’s or whatever. I just want some shoes that fit. Screw getting surgery to narrow my foot. Manufacture some damn shoes that look good on a 9W (US), then we’ll talk, Mr. Choo.

    While right now I’ve got sufficient clothing, etc, I’m still pretty much broke. I’ve been in your position, too. I’m only doing slightly better. It’s still a damn struggle, though.

    This whole thing scares the daylights out of me.

  87. mamavision says:

    Hi Jaime: YES! This is on my to-do list. I am reading a book called Beauty Junkies written by a New York Times reporter. The information on gastric bypass is unreal.

    I should have this posted within the next week or so…if I could dedicate more time to writing I would!

    Thanks for reiterating the importance of this topic!

  88. mamavision says:

    Martha’s $20K bag was widely reported. Click the link above in the post to read more about it.

    Then again, does it really matter if it was ONLY $10K? I am carrying a $10 dollar bag from Target and it looks like leather to me.


  89. mamavision says:

    Ok here is a survey question for Mrs. B and all:

    Who has heard of Jimmy Choos?
    I never did, I read about it in Beauty Junkies, and then I happened to pass a store in Vegas so I popped in there to see what the big deal was. I didn’t get it.

    Am I just way out of the high fashion loop or what?

  90. Rachel says:

    I’ve never heard of Jimmy Choos. I don’t live in the high fashion loop, either apparently.

    My purse is $10 (on sale) from JC Pennys.

    Pffftttt… Rich people!!!

  91. withlovebyli says:

    MamaV, I saw a special on the news this year about trends and I swear I thought I heard them say “Skinny Shoes” instead of “Jimmy Choos”. Then I thought: “Is that another way to say ‘high heeled shoes’? If it is, my flat feet don’t fit in heels so Skinny Shoes be gone!”

    I might take a look at Jimmy Choos runners or skater shoes since I’m all about comfort but I’d only look, never buy because some of us have student loans to pay! haha. For the record, I would never buy 5 grand shoes or whatever the price tag of Jimmy Choos are. At the most, $350 and those better be custom made with my name blazed on the side. lol

  92. x says:

    Who wants to be Mrs. B’s daughter developed anorexia as a way to deal with an overbearing, know-it-all, controlling mother?

    Taking bets, taking bets…

    Oh also, I live in a cardboard box and eat dirt and illegals raped my dad.

  93. vive42 says:


    look. in the course of this conversation i have come to strongly dislike the way mrs b goes about expressing herself in online debates. however, i really don’t think your comment is appropriate. whatever else i may think of her, she seems to care a lot about her daughter and we should wish both of them all the best as they deal with everything that comes when one family member attempts to recover from an ed.

  94. Laura says:

    Money is relative. Some would feel spending $10 on a bag from Target is “too much”.

    I work full time, put myself through my Master’s, started my own business. I budget and spend what I want on myself. Sometimes I spend over $150 on jeans. Sometimes I buy $5 t-shirts at Target.

    Many of my clients are very wealthy. I am GLAD they are wealthy, because the more wealthy my clients are, the more wealthy I become. I am an athlete, and fundraise for races around the country. That is how I choose to give back for certain causes which I feel are important.

    What people fail to realize is just because most wealthy people spend tons of money on “stuff” doesn’t mean they don’t donate millions to charity every year. Judgement should be reserved in the cases of both the wealthy and the poor.

    As a homeowner, I pay special attention to taxes. My property taxes went up 25% this year – from just over $4000 to $5000 per year. Property taxes pay for tons of stuff for my community – including school and health care for illegal immigrants. Currently, my state government is trying to pass legislation to allow illegal immigrants to attend state colleges for in-state tuition. WHAT?!?

    Keep in mind, I am an immigrant – a legal immigrant. Moved here when I was five with my family on a Work Visa. If my dad lost his job before becoming citizens we would have had to leave. Because that would make us ILLEGAL.

    Without an under the table illegal workforce americans would get paid better.

    To those who don’t think the illegal immigrant issue matters – why not just erase the borders between north and central america? Why not just turn us into one big country?

    Mrs. B: You are obviously mature and “get it”. Good luck with everything!

  95. AnneMarie says:

    As a single, sole-support mother living on a government’s assistance of $500/mos. , I cannot even fathom even having $20,000 in my possession never mind WASTING it on a purse?!
    That could be my son’s college fund – if I could ever afford to acquire a college fund for him.
    Or a downpayment on a Real home AND buy a car AND pay insurance.
    He might know what it was like to go to a real restaurant ( the kind where the napkins don’t pop out of a dispenser, y’know..).

    God Forbid these people ever end up with a net worth of less than $1,000. They’d jump off a roof! (lets pray they leave some assets to charity, then maybe WE can eat next month!)

    -that article made me cranky,

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